User talk:MarkDilley/Archive2

community.info
People involved with wiki
 * Front door

watchlists

 * WorkInProgress

featured content
Category:vibrant


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news

 * "Building communities worth having!", February 3-5, 2006, Portland, Oregon. Join us at RecentChangesCamp ... at the University Place Conference Center
 * weblog: RecentChanges.Info


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related

 * TourBusSystem, WikiNode, LocalNames


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note
Please keep this list alphabetized. Try to make sure the columns stay even (unless there is an odd number of listings). Also, the link to the current collaboration should be a template that you can update without directly editing the Community Portal.
 * }


 * }

Discussion
What do folks think about Front door as an alternate to Community portal.

Recent Changes
Help:Recent changes and point it to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Recent_changes, thus utilizing wikis that are already documented. Do one for tags and other browse functions.

Recursive Nature of Wiki example. Having recent changes be more consisted with the site, i.e. template with a wiki on it? Or have it point to the meta wiki media. or both.

Mission statement for the website
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?MissionStatement

Starting point suggestions:

Ground Level, The Wiki Way
1 - To build community amoung people who are using wikis to self organize information that is of interest to them.

2 - By helping to build that community, the WikiIndex will become more accurate and more of a WikiNode for other information types.

3 - NonViolentCommunication skills be thought of a standard for this type of communication.

4 - Think about how the ExperiencedInteractionWithInexperience dynamic plays out in real life and online.

5 - The current few months of this wiki development is in brainstorm mode. MarkDilley, Raymond King started off the brainstorming for the wiki, by deciding on a set template for the pages and a vision to get them filled in with a strong data set. Then to start working on processes and the such after that.

6 - All edits are SuggestedEdits. If a dispute occurs, such as an EditWar, people can rely on their creative energies to come up with solutions, for example Versioning.

community building system for wiki
So I have this idea for a Community Page that would be something like WhatILearnedOnWikiToday which is just stories on a wiki page, like a weblog, reverse dated, pile the next one on top. I think it would be a way to share what we learn about, with and from wiki.

I asked my housemate to type in switchwiki into the address bar. WorldWideWiki:SwitchWiki hit first. He then made from the world wide wiki site to the WikiIndex. He sat back and was amazed at the front page, so many choices, I sat back and went, hmmm, does the front page look to complex? wouldn't it be nice to just have a search button in the center like google. but at this site, you can edit your search page if you want..? Interesting idea I had, but the real issue is we just need to think how we want to be presented to people. Anyway, I asked him to pick a site, he chose one that had 'Hard Wiki on it and he went there. After stumbling around a bit he clicked on the photo, remarked postively after visiting the CreativeCommons site. Then asked how to get to the wiki, I said it was easy. He then found it and went to HardWiki and I thought the FrontPage was nice. News on the right, community edited news. (RecentChanges.Info maybe here on the wiki, similar to what CommunityWiki is doing. He found a news article that linked to google video, and then he started to surf it. Like I enjoy surfing wiki.

re: Namespaces
Yes, MediaWiki has them pre-installed. I'm satisfied with our resolutions Namespace Conventions. TedErnst | talk 15:24, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

movie recommendation
I watched this on my laptop on the plane home from Seattle. http://www.archive.org/details/salt_of_the_earth Totally awesome labor movie from the 50s. Check it out if you haven't already. TedErnst | talk 15:26, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

list of biggest wiki
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_wikis

and on MeatballWiki

recursive
UseModWiki isn't going to show up in the OpenEdit cat anymore, correct? Doesn't seem right. TedErnst | talk 14:07, 14 Feb 2006 (EST)


 * I fixed UseMod here and Lizzy here. What a pain in the neck!  Are you sure this is worth it? TedErnst | talk 12:32, 15 Feb 2006 (EST)

WikiProtocal
fyi http://b2b.wikis.com/wc.dll?b2b~WikiProtocol TedErnst | talk 15:36, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

edit mode
check back in at Category talk:Wiki Edit Mode? Thanks! TedErnst | talk 23:39, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)


 * awesome! welcome back - that's a lot of 18 hour days - hope it was productive TedErnst | talk 17:12, 23 Feb 2006 (EST)

collapsing work in progress
yes, that was a good idea --Raymond King | talk 03:34, 23 Feb 2006 (EST)

Versioning
See the idea of Versioning as a way to deal with the phenomenon of competition and ego for our own ideas on the very first page. By creating "unlimited" variants, people may more freely explore and express their ideas to express and thoughts. We could use self organized controls, such as and ExpiresOn categories to deal with clutter. I really don't think we are going to be overwhelmed with traffic to be able to at least do this for a few months. What would the WikiWay do? MarkDilley

So I have made a couple versions as expamles:


 * MarkDilley:VersionTwo to store my front page. I just need to go clean off the wiki people tag.
 * MarkDilley:WikiIndex:Community portal
 * MarkDilley:WikiIndex - I think I will use a : inbetween like MarkDilley:WikiIndex as a page name for my ideas on the page WikiIndex.
 * MarkDilley:MissionStatement

versioning discussion
I was nervous about putting this out here, so I asked JohnAbbe about it and then he missed my irc chat and I could wait to just do it. So he just came back to my question:


 * well, it turned out that it was more of an idea than a question. The question is how do we support others ideas and creativity on a wiki?


 * my answer is less techie - by listening, and reflecting what we're getting of what someone says/writes

Thanks John! and IRC!

The other nice thing about the ":" in the middle fo the wiki words is that when I type in MarkDilley and hit enter a pages comes up with everything of mine. sweeet!! :-)

Mark,

I'm not getting you. Are you saying that one way to introduce changes that I'm not sure are non-controversial is to make a "temp" page for the purpose, get comments, and then copy/paste that temp page to the real location?

Or am I totally missing it?

TedErnst 13:52, 24 Jan 2006 (EST)


 * Nope! You got it.  But I think the beauty of it is that people can cull what they like from the page and just go with it.  So I, or anyone, can say Here is a idea I had  - what do folks think about it.  So then it would take another person to go ahead and just do it or comment that it was a good idea.  Or to critique, or as you would say, use the  Two feet rule and just ignore it.  I think it would work.  Do you?  Best, MarkDilley

Yes, I do think it will work. It's a bit less efficient than just editing the page directly, though it has the huge advantage of being less likely of stepping on people, so it's easier for people to work together (emotionally easier, technically it's a bit harder because of having to look multiple places, although...)

...A suggestion would be to simply use the talk page of the page in question! TedErnst | talk 15:19, 24 Jan 2006 (EST)


 * I still like my idea of using the talk page for the page in question. Otherwise, how's anyone going to see your proposed versions?  Seems like a lot of extra overhead and I'm not yet seeing that outweighed by the benefits. TedErnst | talk 12:53, 28 Feb 2006 (EST)


 * How will someone know to look for a version? And why can't it simply be a section on the talk page?  You said it was from a month ago, but it appeared here now, which made me think it was new again. :-) TedErnst | talk 13:48, 1 Mar 2006 (EST)

I was cleaning up an old page called "Versioning" and placeing it in my talk space. There are many benifits to the idea of "Versioning" but I don't think it needs to be figured out now, infact I don't have the energy to figure it out now! :-) Best, MarkDilley | talk


 * Hi! Thanks for the welcome.  I got introduced to this by my housemate TedErnst. Dan Korn 23:33, 1 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * Found a TedErnst link that I feel is in the ballpark of what I am thinking on this stuff. http://tedernst.com/wp/?p=366


 * Sorry, I'm not getting the connection yet. Say more?  (By the way, Kaliya is not happy that I blogged about this so soon in the brainstorming process.  Seems there's some internal board stuff she's dealing with.  Just call me troublemaker!) TedErnst | talk 13:40, 9 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * my idea of "Versioning" is that it is a copy of the article page, but done in a SuggestedEdit format. That wouldn't really work on a talk page, because of all the talking going on

weblog post
http://celeryjuice.net/04/04/2006/wiki/

move page feature
Mark, you know about that feature, yes? I noticed you cut and pasted info from my spam page to the new opt out page and then marked the spam page for deletion. If you had just moved the spam page to the opt out page there would be an automatic redirect created and no deletion would be necessary. What do you think? TedErnst | talk 17:50, 3 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * I didn't think to do that, but should have. MarkDilley | talk

No worries. I find it a very cool feature and just wanted to make sure you knew about it. I really like that anyone can use it, not just admin! And it preserves the edit history, in case anyone cares about that :-) TedErnst | talk 02:00, 4 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * Another advantage of the Move feature is that it moves the matching Talk page (if any) - with certain rare exceptions. robinp 16:37, 16 Mar 2006 (EST)

Next WikiIndex banner?
banner - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006_Call_for_Participation

Cool idea at da'pedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Film

Re: Deleted Redirects
We talked about this a month or so ago. I'm not a fan of deleting redirects, unless they're defamatory or harmful to the project (like my spam one). I really, really hate the case-sensitivity of Media Wiki and re-directs are one way to make that less of a problem. I humbly request that you save us both some time by not deleting them, or of course, I'm open to more conversation if you like. TedErnst | talk 12:37, 6 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * I agree with Ted there. I know they appear in the "all pages" list, but that's not something most people ever need to look at. Redirects definitely avoid the likely duplication of pages by well-meaning people who just haven't searched far enough to find what they are duplicating (and don't know they haven't), or haven't even tried. robinp 16:59, 16 Mar 2006 (EST)

Wikis to Add
Awesome work creating all those pages! This will save a lot of time, not having to create the pages or figure out the name of the wiki. Excellent! TedErnst | talk 12:37, 6 Mar 2006 (EST)

navel gazing
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/main?q=&url=wikiindex.com  (moved to http://www.alexa.com/data/details/main?q=&url=wikiindex.org)

Shock Level 4
http://wikiindex.com/Sl4Wiki  (moved to http://wikiindex.org/Sl4Wiki) TedErnst | talk 16:21, 6 Mar 2006 (EST)

logos
I haven't done much with logos or images of any kind on MediaWiki, but I thought there was a way to upload an image with the same name as a previous image, and it would replace it, just like wiki text. That way, you wouldn't have to change the template in our site with the new name. Did I dream this up? TedErnst | talk 16:36, 6 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * I think your are correct that we don't need to change the template for images uploaded with the same name. If you are reffering to the updated logo at Wikicites. The old logo was just named Wikicities, the new one is named WikicitiesLogo. MarkDilley | talk

Ah, I hadn't thought of the fact that we might not be re-naming logos. Cool. Carry on! :-) TedErnst | talk 17:03, 6 Mar 2006 (EST)

how do you track actvitiy on wikis you care about?
I noticed you commented on a new person at wikisym today. How do you track the wikis you care about? I'm using http://www.communitywiki.org/en/RecentChangesPersonalizedTedErnst. TedErnst | talk 17:06, 8 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * Hi Ted - mostly Bloglines - http://www.bloglines.com/public/MarkDilley

You seem to have lost your cookie. Anyway, holy shit, you follow a lot of feeds! How much of that do you actually read? TedErnst | talk 23:21, 8 Mar 2006 (EST)

language note
http://meta.anarchopedia.org/index.php/Anarchopedia:Community_Portal

Trade off between reading and writing
http://www.nooranch.com/synaesmedia/wiki/wiki.cgi?TradeOffBetweenReadingAndWriting

RecentChangesPatrol
excellent! sorry for reverting you - I couldn't figure out what you were doing - now I see it and of course it's much better than it was before - great work! TedErnst | talk 13:31, 10 Mar 2006 (EST)

wikis for review
Do we have a way to mark wikis for review? If not, remind me to create something, will you? In the meantime, take a look at GreenCheese, okay? comment going to both Mark and Ray -- TedErnst | talk 17:21, 10 Mar 2006 (EST)

delete procedure
Please see WikiIndex talk:Deleting pages. Thanks! TedErnst | talk 02:30, 11 Mar 2006 (EST)

RealNames
I know you're busy. No hurry. When you get a chance, could you look in on the RealNames discussion page? Thanks! TedErnst | talk 14:14, 16 Mar 2006 (EST)

good idea
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Beer_parlour - maybe go hang out at the BeachByTheOcean

LocalNames
I think that what you are calling LocalNames is what the MediaWiki software refers to as an interwiki or intermap link. I can, for example, user the WikiPedia:User talk:BlankVerse link on every wiki using the MediaWiki software and that will link to my user page on the English-language Wikipedia. I haven't been able to find where the WikiIndex keeps its interwiki map, but it it must have one for that last link to work. The interwiki map for all of the Wikimedia Foundation projects is at and the Usemod/MeatballWiki map is at. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterWiki and http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?InterMap. User:BlankVerse | talk 18:38, 29 Mar 2006 (EST)


 * These live in the 'interwiki' table on the MySQL database; there is an extension available for MW1.5+ to allow them to be edited directly from a special:interwiki page.

InterWiki links are different than LocalNames (CommunityWiki:LocalNames)


 * True, but I don't see a "try here, and if you don't find it try somewhere else" form of link anywhere in the standard MediaWiki distribution . InterWiki links always point to an explicitly-specified wiki and page name.

You are correct, MediaWiki is not set up for local names.


 * MarkDilley: hi!

[10:37pm] evanpro: Are you here? [10:37pm] evanpro: I have a strange question for you [10:37pm] evanpro: Well, only slightly strange [10:37pm] evanpro: It's about WikiIndex [10:37pm] MarkDilley: Hello! [10:38pm] evanpro: I was just looking at the good ol' interwiki map on usemod.com [10:38pm] evanpro: and I was thinking, man, this is really out of date [10:38pm] evanpro: I wonder if there's a site that has a comprehensive view on existent wikis... [10:38pm] MarkDilley: right [10:39pm] evanpro: ...that could serve as a focal point for developing a "canonical" (note the quotes) interwiki map [10:39pm] evanpro: ? [10:39pm] evanpro: Which is a coy and leading question [10:39pm] evanpro: Since there is one such site... [10:39pm] evanpro: ...and I've mentioned it already in this chat. [10:39pm] MarkDilley: I asked a question at WikiIndex about hwo interwiki map works with MediaWiki [10:39pm] evanpro: B-) [10:41pm] evanpro: It's a very weird system [10:41pm] evanpro: There's a database table that stores the prefix and URL pattern [10:41pm] MarkDilley: I am not sure about "canonical" [10:43pm] evanpro: Yeah [10:43pm] evanpro: Maybe... I dunno [10:43pm] evanpro: "Frequently used" [10:43pm] evanpro: Like the page on Wikitravel might note that "WikiTravel" is the frequently used IW prefix [10:43pm] evanpro: Hmm [10:43pm] MarkDilley: http://www.wikiindex.com/Category:Vibrant [10:45pm] evanpro: B-) [10:45pm] evanpro: I should probably bring this up on the community portal instead of ambushing you on IRC [10:45pm] evanpro: B-) [10:49pm] de_vogon left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [10:50pm] MarkDilley: I am trying to juggle another convo, sorry :-( [10:50pm] MarkDilley: and I am not sure exactly what you mean, I know what you are saying I think [10:50pm] MarkDilley: I mean, I think I understand the problem [10:51pm] MarkDilley: Please put on the wiki your ideas about how to do this...?

Thanks
Thanks for listing WikiLens. We'd like more users. :)

--Dan

No problem Dan! We would like to facilitate more people to your community!! Please take some time and make your entry better representative of your wiki. :-) MarkDilley

for the how to tread lightly on newbies page
CommmuityWiki:NoSuddenMovements NoSuddenMovements

edit war
Mark, obviously neither of us wants to be in an edit war. I haven't looked through all the changes, but I'm writing here about your re-naming of the tourbusstop. Also just as obviously, there's not a clear "rule" about which change "sticks" while we're working out a difference. I moved it from where it was and you (apparently it was you, it was unsigned) objected. I asked why and got no response. Now there's a response there and you went ahead and moved it back. This is a wiki practice issue for me at this point. In essence you reverted me and we can either have the conversation in this reverted state or I can drop the whole thing. Maybe I'm fooling myself thinking this is about something larger than my own pettiness. Part of the the problem is I've been home with the flu today so probably am more senstitive than usual today. Let's talk in a couple of days, okay? peace, TedErnst | talk 23:52, 3 Apr 2006 (EDT)

quantum
From Wikipedia - "A quantum number is any one of a set of numbers used to specify the full quantum state of any system in quantum mechanics. Each quantum number specifies the value of a conserved quantity in the dynamics of the quantum system. Since any quantum system can have one or more quantum numbers, it is a futile job to list all possible quantum numbers."

Hello Mark
Talking to Ted and stopped by to understand this wonderful site a bit more. How wonderful a gift this is. Would love to connect more with you and think about you often. Skype: juliecaldwell

Hugs, Julie Caldwell

names
So when you see 68.73.201.100, does it mean something to you? What about why you see WikiVanTed? Trying to get my mind around how you see things. Wanna do the same with me? TedErnst | talk 18:12, 11 Apr 2006 (EDT)

''My inital thoughts: I see an IP address as an anonymous edit, i.e. someone not logged in. When I see WikiVanTed it can be one of two ways to think of it. If I know you, then it is not anonymous. More often than not, I find that psudonyms are not linked to a "real person" and so they are just really anonymous contributors, similar to an IP address. For me, I have been most involved in wikis where there is a strong UseRealName standard. I don't feel connected to wiki that are not mostly real people. I want to create a one stop sign wiki town here at wiki index. Not to mean that I am not as interested in "producing" an encyclopedia of wiki links. It is just that figuring out how to help people in wiki start communicating with each other is most important for me. I like WikiIndex, in my mind we are setting up the place and asking people to come here and set up their wiki, description, tagging, etc. as a front lawn of sorts in this small one stop wiki town. I look forward when there will be metropolis of wiki. - late, rambling, best, MarkDilley''

So it wouldn't bother you at all if I never logged in? You don't hold my edits to a different standard than an anon? You know I'm asking because it's all about me! :-) No, actually, what I'm saying is that when I know it's you, when I see your name, even if I disagree with something you're doing, there's an automatic cutting of slack.  If I see an IP, I don't know who it is.  I'm more likely to simply revert.  Someone not invested enough here to sign their work hasn't earned the right to ruffle feathers, I'd say.  I don't have any reason to this this person will be back to answer questions I might ask about their actions.  Someone with a login has something invested.

And just to be clear, you and I agree on RealNames as the standard. Where we disagree (I think), is on IP vs psuedo. For me, an IP is not a person, it's a machine or an anoyance or a spammer. A psuedo is a person. I'd rather know their name and interact with them that way, but it is a person to me. It's less of a person than someone using their RealName, for sure, but way more of a person to me than is an IP. TedErnst | talk 11:45, 12 Apr 2006 (EDT)

''No it would never bother me if you never logged in. I would learn the IPs that you posted from. So we agree on RealNames - but we have a big gap on the Ip vs Psudonym. I feel the opposite, an psudonym is a jokester, someone who I don't think this that seriously, not a person. I feel it is a trap to think of a psudonym as an identity. An IP to me can represent the beautiful anonymity that the wiki can provide. I read IP and psudonym edits in similar light, content. I am not inclinded to revert anything that anyone has done, unless it is obvious spam, because I want them to explore their ideas, however simple they may be, or however I may not understand them yet. ''

''Much of what I have been thinking about in regards to some of our (diffs) is in the BalancingProcessAndProduct realm, if that makes any sense. I am still groking it. Thanks for your thoughtfullness Ted. Best, MarkDilley''

Mark, I just had a brainstorm and came here to tell you about it and found your comment. I'll give you my brainstorm first and then see if I have more to add in terms of your comment. My brainstorm has to do with the login procedure. Why do we have a UserName? Shouldn't it just be a Name? If it was a Name, would that not encourage more people to use RealNames? This will require John's help, of course. What do you think? Worth pursuing? TedErnst | talk 16:36, 12 Apr 2006 (EDT)


 * That would probably mean forking MediaWiki, which I don't think the GPL lets you do too easily. Though we could just edit the login screen to mention all this. I forget the name of the actual page, but it's somewhere in the MediaWiki: namespace. &mdash;User:Sean Fennel @ 20:24, 16 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Sean and Ted, I think that is a great idea Ted! I have asked John to look into changing the title of Article to Wiki because that is basically what it is. I don't understand the problem with making those tweaks Sean, so if you could find a path to your suggestion, that would be fab!


 * Hmm. What about all of our pages that aren't wikis?  TedErnst | talk 13:06, 20 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Well, none of our pages are articles...


 * They aren't? What about WikiNodes?  ... Actually, I'll stop there.  I was going to give a whole mess of examples, but there aren't very many others, if any.  I concede the point.  We don't have articles.  But "wiki" doesn't seem right either because we have pages for people and for other stuff, too. TedErnst | talk 17:08, 21 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Maybe none was a bit of an exageration, but I think we can come up with a better header than "Article" - I just threw out "Wiki" because that is the vast bulk of our pages.


 * I think editing either MediaWiki:Emailforlost or MediaWiki:Loginprompt would do it. Which one would just depend on where on the login screen you wanted it. &mdash;User:Sean Fennel @ 03:50, 23 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Thanks Sean, I will check out that path!

UseMod
Mark, I see you're tidying up the UseModWiki / UseMod issue. I haven't looked at many of your edits, but I'm confused about this one. In fact, forget that, the categories themselves are confused. See this: Category:UseMod which hard redirects to UseModWiki which in turn soft redirects to Category:UseModWiki. Confusing! How should it be laid out? TedErnst | talk 12:03, 14 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Teaked it a little, it is still messy. This is the whole category as wiki thing I am trying to figure out. The categories get messy. Will try to look at it later. Best, MarkDilley

Doesn't seem messy to me anymore. I thought the engine was called UseMod so wondered about your move of wikis to UseModWiki and your move in the other direction as well. I didn't realize you'd cleaned it all up so they're now all UseModWiki and I've gone to the source and see that once again, I'm wrong. :-) Yes, it's true.  I'm wrong.  The wiki is at usemod.com (not usemodwiki.com) and has a logo that says Use Mod and yet the name of the engine is clearly UseModWiki.  Strange but true!  I think it's quite fine the way it is. TedErnst | talk 16:17, 14 Apr 2006 (EDT)

re: wikipedia
Thanks, Mark. There's a lot more to do, but perhaps now that it's started, Ray's people will get to it. :-) TedErnst | talk 19:11, 24 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Hey, when are you passing through? TedErnst | talk 19:11, 24 Apr 2006 (EDT)

Regarding Wiki Guitar
I want to make it open edit (no need for an account) but I have been having problems with spam.

I also am having trouble upgrading. I upgraded to 1.6.3 today and got a bunch of SQL errors. The truth is, I don't know much about PHP, Mediawiki, or MYSQL. What I do know a lot about is Guitar and some with HTML and web design.

re: deletion
feel free to undelete it - it was just nonsense, as far as I can tell - plus has nothing to do with searching - no worries if you undelete and try to do something with it - I'll watch you and learn TedErnst | talk 22:42, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Thanks Mark
Mark:

Thanks for the welcome and updating of my pages.

http://www.wikiindex.com/David_Spencer  (moved to http://www.wikiindex.org/David_Spencer)

http://www.wikiindex.com/ChristianMedia.ca  (moved to http://www.wikiindex.org/ChristianMedia.ca)

Wikiindex.com (Wikiindex.org) is a very helpful site!

David Spencer Canada

Thanks for the welcome Mark. Michael_Misovec